Any chance Real Simulator will develop a space combat grip?

Forgotten Spectrum
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Re: Any chance Real Simulator will develop a space combat gr

Post by Forgotten Spectrum »

Romulus Stahl wrote:To clarify something as well.
"A mini analogue stick for menu navigation
-A scroll wheel - once again for menu navigation "
Analog stick (axis) and scroll wheels (rotary encoders) inputs don't get you anything for menus, the existing setups having been navigating menus for years on RL planes.
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I use the Warthog grip/throttle to play Elite Dangerous, and your'e absolutely right, it's entirely possible to navigate with this system. But frankly, it SUCKS. The addition of a scroll wheel and mini-analogue stick would make it WAY more comfortable. The scroll wheel would be great for menu selection - far more comfortable than clicking over and over again on a hat switch. With a space sim you spend far more time in menus than in something like DCS, so anything to make this easier would be a great asset.

The mini-analogue stick would be perfect for star chart navigation. At present there's no comfortable way to navigate the star field chart in ED with conventional aircraft inputs - so the analogue stick would be huge. Currently, I have to switch to a mouse just to navigate this system. With a mini stick and scroll wheel I could move the cursor and zoom in and out with ease, effectively eliminating the need for a mouse, which would be a huge improvement.

Is it technically possible to play these games with RL plane controls? Yes. Are RL plane controls the best way to do so? From experience, I can say that's a definite no. Just because something's technically possible doesn't mean that there's not plenty of room for improvement.

There's a very good reason space sim players want these features and it isn't just to get that cool scifi aesthetic.
Romulus Stahl wrote:If you are looking for additional axis or mousing function it can be done but rapidly increases pricing as decent controls are costly, a decent mini stick will run you more than an entry level joystick.
I'm not sure where you get the idea that these features would cause the cost of a stick to skyrocket. The Virpil Delta incorporates these features (mini stick and scroll wheel) and costs 110 euro, quite reasonable I'd say. Granted their standards aren't quite up to the level of realsimulator, but they're still very good and the delta stick has been very well received. VKB's offering the KOSMOSIMA has a ministick and costs $120. Once again, this stick has been very well reviewed.
Romulus Stahl
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Re: Any chance Real Simulator will develop a space combat gr

Post by Romulus Stahl »

A few comments:
The Warthog throttle has a ministick (X/Y Axis) it isn't very good in it's off the shelf state due to costs, hence their have been several after market mods such as this one:
https://deltasimelectronics.com/product ... or-adapter

It's easy enough in TARGET to program the functions you are looking for into a button or axis, it can probably be done in one of the other apps like Joystick Gremlin (I haven't used it but have heard good things about it). If you aren't using your gear to it's full extent that's on you.

Where I'm coming from with the costs is I've been playing with joysticks for over 25 years, dealt with the issues, worked with the after market mods, beta tested items, etc. Virpil has been doing great things, I know some folks that have bought several of their sticks and have opted in for the upgrades that Virpil has been doing over the course of the past few years. While the overall all reviews of the items are favorable, I've heard first hand how it would have better if the company would have used some better components, I get the price point issue.
Here's an example of a Virpil mod
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=240077
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lu9FSM ... b0TLI/view
Here's another example of buying a good quality thumbstick vs. some of the cheap stuff that's out there.
https://ruffycontrols.com/product/ts1-threaded-housing/
Forgotten Spectrum
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Re: Any chance Real Simulator will develop a space combat gr

Post by Forgotten Spectrum »

Romulus Stahl wrote:A few comments:
The Warthog throttle has a ministick (X/Y Axis) it isn't very good in it's off the shelf state due to costs, hence their have been several after market mods such as this one:
https://deltasimelectronics.com/product ... or-adapter

It's easy enough in TARGET to program the functions you are looking for into a button or axis, it can probably be done in one of the other apps like Joystick Gremlin (I haven't used it but have heard good things about it). If you aren't using your gear to it's full extent that's on you.

Where I'm coming from with the costs is I've been playing with joysticks for over 25 years, dealt with the issues, worked with the after market mods, beta tested items, etc. Virpil has been doing great things, I know some folks that have bought several of their sticks and have opted in for the upgrades that Virpil has been doing over the course of the past few years. While the overall all reviews of the items are favorable, I've heard first hand how it would have better if the company would have used some better components, I get the price point issue.
Here's an example of a Virpil mod
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=240077
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lu9FSM ... b0TLI/view
Here's another example of buying a good quality thumbstick vs. some of the cheap stuff that's out there.
https://ruffycontrols.com/product/ts1-threaded-housing/
Thanks for those links. I've actually already purchased and installed that delta sim thumb stick for my Warthog throttle. It's a huge improvement over the original slew stick and I use it for some basic menu navigation. However, being right handed I would much prefer to use a stick mounted thumbstick. Throttle navigation with a non-dominant hand is pretty awkward and uncomfortable. The newer Virpil throttles actually include a mini thumbstick, so that particular mod shouldn't be necessary for new buyers, but I can certainly see why people would want to mod their old throttles.

Regarding price, I think for the vast majority Virpil's thumb sticks and scroll wheels will not disappoint. Would I like even better quality components? Of course. Better quality is always a good thing. I'd even be willing to pay a bit more for higher shelf components, but you clearly have to draw the line somewhere. If you really wanted to get crazy you could probably use military spec buttons for +$1,000 a pop, but I don't think that would wash with most consumers. It's all about finding the price/benefit balance and I think for the great majority of Virpil and VKB consumers this equation will work out fine.

It really just comes down to this, I know for a fact that having a scroll wheel/thumb stick on my stick would significantly enhance my ability to enjoy space simulators. I can say this from personal experience. This is not some illusion in my mind.

Sure you can find some creative solutions with TARGET, etc. but these software workarounds won't make these features magically appear on my flight stick. I'm not interested in some half baked software solution. I want actual, physical components. If a large portion of the space sim community didn't agree, there wouldn't be a market for these sticks in the first place.

Out of curiosity, do you play any space sims yourself? It's clear that you're very knowledgeable when it comes to matters involving flight control systems, however, I get the sense that you probably don't engage in these types of games as if you did I suspect you'd have a greater appreciation for the benefits these control interfaces provide. My apologies if I'm off the mark here.
Romulus Stahl
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Re: Any chance Real Simulator will develop a space combat gr

Post by Romulus Stahl »

I have both ED and SC, I'm very active in the SC arena (I started with ED in the beginning but found it to be a bit casual and simplistic). Due to limitations in DirectX and Game Developers support for joysticks, I rely on the software end of joysticks to complete the experience. A perfect example with lack of support is MechWarrior5, where I had to write my own custom Joystick Remap to use Stick/Throttle/and Rudders. A great DX limitation goes back to the MechWarrior3 days when I was beta testing the game and the F22Pro worked great during beta, on the final release the joystick didn't work as MS decided to implement some changes to DX. At the time Bob Church (a TM fan supporter) wrote a new driver with less buttons so that the F22Pro would work, things have not gotten any better over the years with joystick support with the axis and button count limitations.
Forgotten Spectrum
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Re: Any chance Real Simulator will develop a space combat gr

Post by Forgotten Spectrum »

Romulus Stahl wrote:I have both ED and SC, I'm very active in the SC arena (I started with ED in the beginning but found it to be a bit casual and simplistic). Due to limitations in DirectX and Game Developers support for joysticks, I rely on the software end of joysticks to complete the experience. A perfect example with lack of support is MechWarrior5, where I had to write my own custom Joystick Remap to use Stick/Throttle/and Rudders. A great DX limitation goes back to the MechWarrior3 days when I was beta testing the game and the F22Pro worked great during beta, on the final release the joystick didn't work as MS decided to implement some changes to DX. At the time Bob Church (a TM fan supporter) wrote a new driver with less buttons so that the F22Pro would work, things have not gotten any better over the years with joystick support with the axis and button count limitations.
Thanks for letting me know. My apologies for assuming otherwise. I think this just goes to show that we all have different preferences and want different things out of our hardware. It sounds like using the software side of the equation is working well for you, which is great.

I totally agree regarding the terrible joystick support in the MechWarrior games. It's really disappointing, and what has kept me away that series for quite some time. It's really a shame, as I love giant robots and the whole atmosphere. It sounds like you've found some good workarounds, however, so I may have to give the newest MechWarrior a chance. Still, it would great if support improved across the board, both with the bedrock of DirectX and in game support as well. It's a shame we're such a niche audience, as I'm sure joystick/axis support would be much better if we had more buying power. It's sad to hear that support for these great peripherals is still poor after all these years. Thanks again for your feedback!
Romulus Stahl
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Re: Any chance Real Simulator will develop a space combat gr

Post by Romulus Stahl »

You're welcome, thank for the discussion.
Caboose
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Re: Any chance Real Simulator will develop a space combat gr

Post by Caboose »

Forgotten Spectrum wrote:
-A more futuristic design to the grip
-The presence of LEDs - sometimes useful, sometimes just for that futuristic look
-A mini analogue stick for menu navigation
-A scroll wheel - once again for menu navigation
-Right and left hand variants for those that wish to use dual sticks - generally considered a better setup for space sims than using a throttle
Perhaps I'm not getting something, but why would you need or want RGB LEDs on a joystick? The Virpil Delta is the only stick I can think of that has them, and it looks like a toy.
Forgotten Spectrum
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Re: Any chance Real Simulator will develop a space combat gr

Post by Forgotten Spectrum »

Caboose wrote:
Forgotten Spectrum wrote:
-A more futuristic design to the grip
-The presence of LEDs - sometimes useful, sometimes just for that futuristic look
-A mini analogue stick for menu navigation
-A scroll wheel - once again for menu navigation
-Right and left hand variants for those that wish to use dual sticks - generally considered a better setup for space sims than using a throttle
Perhaps I'm not getting something, but why would you need or want RGB LEDs on a joystick? The Virpil Delta is the only stick I can think of that has them, and it looks like a toy.
There's not a single person on the face of the planet that has identical personal preferences to another, and yet we spend a many of our waking hours obsessing about what others do and don't like in comparison to our own tastes. Why do some people like black licorice and others loath it? Because we're all different that's why.

I often like the look of LEDs, but to you they come off as tacky. While I'm not always in the same camp, I can certainly see where you're coming from. I personally think the upcoming Virpil Alpha goes a little too far with the LED bling for my tastes. On the other hand, the Kosmosima's LEDs are quite understated and actually intended to convey useful information - which is a good thing in my book. The good news is that most of the time the LEDs can simply be turned off if that's not your jam. If you watch scifi movies/shows, the flight sticks are often decked out with lights. It shouldn't come as a surprise that for at least some space sim enthusiasts there's a desire to emulate this look.

Finally, here's a list of several other sticks with RGB LEDS:

-Virpil Delta - as you mentioned
-Virpil Alpha
-VKB Kosmosima
-Logitech X56
-Logitech X55
Dragon
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Re: Any chance Real Simulator will develop a space combat gr

Post by Dragon »

Hi dear.

The actual F16SGRH left and hand grips are really close to what you ask.

Do you have a plenty of buttons and keystrokes.
Do you have a integrated mouse, its really a analog mouse, but its free and you can configure as you like,
Do you have a Scroll wheel, we have not included as menu navigation, just as you have a really huge amount of buttons, we prefer do you use the buttons for it, but if you really wnat can be moved and we can prepare a firmware to move the rotary to a menu navigation.

Other easy solution, its desing a new electronic board to be installed in the F16SGRH with what you ask, a analog micro stick, or even several of them. in this way you would have analog menu navigation.

When we design, the F16SGRH, we take too much attention, to make the electronic as remove and change system, sooooo Its possible.

The most dificult, its the lights, just as we never think about, but can be implemented in this version, if really there are interest, of course.
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