[Ogami]F16SGRH feedback

[ogami musashi]

Hi all,
So far here are my observations, of course there are plenty of amazing thing about the stick, but I focus on constructive criticism.
(1) General package observations:
(1.1) A future exhaustive documentation is needed, both on how to use the stick and how it works, because it is very complex and setting the stick up is very difficult due to the pairing and calibration procedures.
(1.2) The pairing procedure should be explained with message boxes, especially since this is critical for a good calibration.
(1.3) One Fssb fixation should be included in the package so that you can easily fix the stick to an object.
(1.4) The min-din to usb cable is too short.
(1.5) A pin should be given to fix the stick ring to prevent twisting motion when using warthog extension. Without it, the stick still twists. (video: https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ahae0xoYVwgkh1gqR8F ... 8?e=7XahOq)
(2) Axes observations:
(2.1) Free hands:
(2.1.1) Possibly due to an incorrect pairing, there is a "lag" in the axes response. In fact, it is not really a lag, but the first reaction of the axes is to go in the opposite direction for a split second before going into the asked direction e.g. If I pull on the joy, it will push for a split second before pulling.
(2.1.2) I couldn't find any pairing/calibration that allows yaw independent roll. This results in me disabling the yaw axis every time, which is a shame. Possibly due to incorrect pairing.Dependent on pairing
(2.1.3) In the F16SGRH tab of RS_Tools, if you don't put an axis to 100% sensitivity, the calibration is messed up (i.e. it doesn't find the correct center and results in off set axes).
(2.1.4) More stability is needed in rest values, even with my arm that rests on a support, the values vary quite significantly. Having a dead zone or a filter on each axis would be great to prevent unwanted motions.
(2.2) With MFG 7,5cm extension on a warthog base
(2.2.1) Even placed on a warthog extension, I have induced yaw always in the same direction on the roll axis. (video: https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ahae0xoYVwgkh1dpLt29ElA5x2go) Dependent on pairing
(2.2.2) The point 2.1.1 is present even in the 2.2 case (video: https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ahae0xoYVwgkh1sUaSd ... 9?e=3e15jH)
(2.2.3) There is a large amount of ghost inputs that occurs on every axle (see 2.2.2 video). I tested it with the following sensitivities (Pitch/Roll/Yaw): {100,100,20}, {80,80,20}, {100,100,0}.
(2.2.4) While the raw values in RS_tools reach the maximum, joy.cpl properties test show the stick to be very far from its limits.
(2.2.5) Due to 2.2.2-4, flight is very imprecise (2.2.2 makes fine control difficult), unstable (due to 2.2.3) and pitch/roll/yaw rates are slow (due to 2.2.4)
(2.3) With Fssb R3
(2.3.1) The feeling and precision is amazing, I would suggest as someone said in the bar creating a twist bolt to have the yaw axis on the R3 when you use it with the F16SGRH
(2.3.2) The parallel configuration of the FSSB R3 and F16SGRH is confusing for people that do not know the inner workings of both systems. In games, like DCS for example, you have to spread the buttons configuration on both sticks while unbinding the axes on the F16SHRH and keep those on the FSSB R3.
(2.4) Games configuration related issues
(2.4.1) In Rise of Flight and Il2 great battles, the stick axes minimum and maximum values, both in the input mapping menus and in game, are not those of RS_tools, but those of windows. If you don't calibrate the axis with joy.cpl, then the following may happen:
(2.4.1.1) The axis may not be recognized in the input mapping menus. For instance, for the Z axis, you need to go from -179° to +179° to make it detected.
(2.4.1.2) If you calibrated the axis with a small physical displacement range in RS_tools, then won't have enough authority in the game.
(4) Communication
(4.1) Your web page for the F16SG is not clear, many people I talked to about your product didn't understand that the stick had independent axes. This is the main point of the grip. You need to make it clearer.
(5)Bugs
(5.1) If you unplug and re plug the grip using the official usb cable while RS_tools is on and focused, the data transfer hangs at 90%. Unpluging and pluging again the cable won't correct the bug. (video: https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ahae0xoYVwgkh1VxNbihaWYKaP_s)
(5.2) Under 5.1, if you close then restart RS_tools, no data transfer happens.
(5.3) Under 5.1, no pairing is possible; The output window stays blank.
(5.4) If you reinstall bluetooth drivers, or put windows in then out of sleep mode, 5.1-5.3 is corrected. Bought a Sveon SCT-400, the bug is corrected.
(5.5) The F-16SG disconnects from DCS from time to time, happened to me twice during a 10 minutes flight, First I was switching slots, lost all SG controls, second I was changing keys, lost SG colmuns in DCS input menus.(picture: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ahae0xoYVwgkh1wa3Qg ... d?e=c2L5WN)
(6) User manual
(6.1) Sveon SCT-400 is mispelled as Sveon STC-400.
(6.2) Configuring buttons inside simulators is a nightmare. You have to juggle between SG1 and SG2 devices and the numbering is not linear (i.e. the SG2 buttons do not necessarily have higher ID numbers than SG1 buttons). The user manual must be clear that the user should use the RS_tool keystrokes menu rather than the ingame ones.
(7) Workarounds
(7.1) 2.1.2 and 2.1.1 were greatly reduced with the following pairing procedure: 360° yaw rotation as recommended in the F-16SGRH user manual, then multiple 360° (grip-in-all-corners) motions to end the pairing. Even at 100% yaw sensitivity, I had very few induced yaw.
(8) Suggestions
(8.1) Axes
(8.1.1) New options for axes settings: Dead Zones (both center and edges), Non-linear sensitivity.
(8.1.2) Dynamic yaw sensitivity button: When engaged, the yaw sensitivity decreases (to a value set by the user), when roll is applied.



I'll update my post with new results.

Let's keep up the good work!

[markturner]

Hi Ogami, I agree, as a new user, I am finding it a little complex. I think its vital that the system and options and steps are explained carefully and assuming people have a very basic understanding of how the hardware works.

I understand the issues of translation when buying a product from another country, but also, poor translation adds to the frustration of understanding the nuances of what is being expressed in sometimes complex scenarios.....

I think a detailed, well translated manual is essential to get the best from this expensive investment for us.

That said, the response so far has been timely and helpful, on the forum and by email, from Manuel and the others, but as you say, this is constructive criticism, designed to help!

[Shark]

Dear Ogami and Mark,

First all, I would like to thanks your feedback and comment, they are very interesting and offer us other point of view.

We though the videos should be enough to understand how the F16SGRH works and calibrate, pairing, etc but your comment and emails say that we are wrong, so we agree it is necessary to do a user guide and explain step by step all procedures. We are already working in it and hope in some days release it for your revision.

I agree in general with the Ogami observations, but I don't agree with the point 1.4, the cable is 1,8 mt lenght, I think is enough, if you need more lenght you can use an USB extender cable or a power point like a wall charger near the use location.

Thanks again and we wait to receive more customer feedback

Best regards

Shark

[ogami musashi]

Update 16/07/19:
New bugs section (5)


My stick is currently in 5.1.5 state. Tried unplug-replug, change usb port, re-install rs_tools, to no avail. My yaw calibration is all over the place (will move a lot when applying roll) so I need to redo pairing but I can't because of point 5.1.5

[Shark]

Hi Ogami,

Thanks for your new update. Next I reply your new points:

5.1.1 - The firmware installed in the F16SGRH (F16_RH_FW_0_00_1.F16SGRH) is included in the installation, if you try to update the grip with the DCC you can see it.
5.1.2 - We never detected this issue, and now I pressed several times the trigger 1 and the trigger 1 & 2 and never changed the pitch axe.
5.1.3 - Our comms never hangs during a data transfer, so we will study and fix the issues in this way.

5.1.4 & 5 - I don´t understand your explanation, I have broken the data transfer several times unplugged the stick and after close/launch the RS_HID_DEV_TOOL the system works normally. I don't know what is the relation between Pairing and data transfer.

Regards

Shark

[Shark]

Hi Ogami,

We have added a new FAQ related to your "issue" with the axes change, maybe this explain and fix it.

Regards,

Shark

[ogami musashi]

Update 17/07/2019
Removed 5.1.1 and 5.1.2 thanks to shark advices.


My stick is still stuck. Everytime I replug the stick and launch RS_tools, data transfer hangs at 90%. I then unplug the stick, close RS_tools, relaunch RS_tools, plug the stick, same thing happens (data transfer hangs). If I just close Rs_tools without unpluging the stick, and relaunch it, no data transfer happens. The axes works BUT in my case, I need to repair them because I did an incorrect pairing last time. Yet, Pairing does not work. When I click on "Pair F-16SGRH", the message box reading that I must following the instructions on the output console appear but nothing is shown in the output console. If I click on "cancel pairing", nothing happens, that is, nothing on the output console, and the "cancel pairing" does not change back to "pair f-16SGRH". If I click again on "cancel pairing" the message boxes for the pairing happen again, but still nothing on the output console and "cancel pairing" is still the text on the button. So as of now, I can't use the stick.

[Shark]

Ogami,

About the data transfer hangs, I think you have not problems with them, as you say the progress bar is painted until 90% aprox. but there is no problem in comms. only the progress bar is painted at 100% for a instant. If the comms are broken the window doesn't close and wait until receive all the info.

About the pairing, the info is showed in the Output testbox. After you accept the informative window as soon as you move the stick you will see a counter increase until 100. To make a good pairing you must use the supplied wire to move the stick freely and a last thing, please check the roll, pitch and yaw sensibility are to 100%.

Regards,

Shark

[ogami musashi]

Shark,

The data transfer window doesn't close. That is what I meant by "hangs at 90%". I left it a whole night, and by the morning the window was still there.

As for the pairing, I move the stick of course, not fixed and with the mini-din to usb cable. Nothing happens.

[markturner]

Sounds a bit like what happened for me, whereby because of bluetooth issues, I got stuck in the middle of firmware update.

Try uninstalling bluetooth, then start the whole thing again from scratch, with the bootloader etc. Mine worked perfectly once I had installed a properly functioning bluetooth adapter. But I had to start again from the beginning.

Mark