Purpose of axis sensors in premium F16 grip?

Forgotten Spectrum
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:51 am
Product: R3
S/N: 111

Purpose of axis sensors in premium F16 grip?

Post by Forgotten Spectrum »

Hello,

I was just wondering if someone could enlighten me on the usefulness of the internal axis sensors on the premium F16 grip? It just seems to me that the vast majority of users will have this grip attached either to Real Simulator's own force sensing base or Thrusmaster's base. What exactly are the applications of this feature, and realistically how many sim flyers will put them to use? I suppose you could just hold the grip in mid air and waggle it about like a conductor's baton to control your aircraft? That sounds about as much fun as playing air guitar, but hey, at least you'd save money on a base. Seriously though, am I just not seeing the potential of this feature? I've mentioned this in a prior post, but it would be nice to get the premium features of the collector's edition grip minus the axis sensing ability at a reduced price as I can't see myself using this particular aspect of the stick. However, if someone can enlighten my on the usefulness of this feature I'll certainly change my tune.
ogami musashi
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:55 am
Product: R3
S/N: 65

Re: Purpose of axis sensors in premium F16 grip?

Post by ogami musashi »

I use it extensively.
I have my warthog base for X/Y, and the Z on my F16SG. Besides, it allows you to put your stick on any material you want. If you want a long throw stick, you can just fix your stick on a rod, and there you go, if you want to have your stick titled to the right or the left, placed on your knees or anything else, it will work. And because the F16SG is bluetooth, you just need to plug the stick on a power plug, and it will be recognized.
The only thing, is that, as of now, using all three axes is problematic, as you get a lot of parasite yaw, especially in roll. In addition, there is some initial lag, when you begin to move the stick, with rapid movements. However, I am hopeful RS will improve the algorithm.
So I actually rely on that feature.
Forgotten Spectrum
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:51 am
Product: R3
S/N: 111

Re: Purpose of axis sensors in premium F16 grip?

Post by Forgotten Spectrum »

ogami musashi wrote:I use it extensively.
I have my warthog base for X/Y, and the Z on my F16SG. Besides, it allows you to put your stick on any material you want. If you want a long throw stick, you can just fix your stick on a rod, and there you go, if you want to have your stick titled to the right or the left, placed on your knees or anything else, it will work. And because the F16SG is bluetooth, you just need to plug the stick on a power plug, and it will be recognized.
The only thing, is that, as of now, using all three axes is problematic, as you get a lot of parasite yaw, especially in roll. In addition, there is some initial lag, when you begin to move the stick, with rapid movements. However, I am hopeful RS will improve the algorithm.
So I actually rely on that feature.
Thanks for your reply. I understand what you're saying, however, do you realistically see many sim flyers attaching a 650 euro stick to a rod or using it on their knees? I'd love to see someone hook the F16SG to some crazy custom base, however, so far I've seen no evidence of this, and I strongly suspect that the number of users connecting the stick to anything other than a warthog or FSSB R3 can be counted on one hand.

It's great that you've found a use for the motion detection with your warthog base, however, I think for the vast majority of users of this type of hardware any sort of lag or parasitic motion is a complete deal breaker. I know it certainly would be for me. As you mentioned, perhaps it can be improved with updates, but if there's even the slightest bit of lag or motion bleed, I know I'm going straight to a cable. Also, without the presence of an internal battery, I think the benefits of bluetooth are (at least for me) almost entirely nullified. So you can go wireless. That's great - the only catch being you still need to have it plugged in via power cord. What's the purpose of bluetooth if it still requires a cord?

I'm not saying that these aren't interesting features, and I'm 100% behind innovation, but I'd also like to have the option of purchasing a stick the premium finish of the collector's edition minus the features I know I (and I suspect many others) will never have any use for. I don't want them to discontinue the collector's edition or anything of that nature - as I'm sure at least a few sim flyers can put the extra features to good use - however, it would be great if they offered an extra model that sat between the premium and standard editions. However, I also know that product fragmentation can be expensive for a company, so I can understand why realsimulator would choose not to do so.

Finally, when you say you use the F16SG for the Z axis, do you mean that your warthog base isn't attached to a solid surface and you lift it up and down to activate the Z axis? I'm a bit curious about this. Thanks again for your feedback!
ogami musashi
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:55 am
Product: R3
S/N: 65

Re: Purpose of axis sensors in premium F16 grip?

Post by ogami musashi »

The purpose of the bluetooth is to bypass the base onto which you attach the stick. For example, you can buy the winwing F-18 hotas with their throttle and stick base. If you are not satisfied with their electronics, you can attach an F-16SG to the base, power it, then use the internal axes, if the axes are attached to a base, then the parasite yaw is much less important. That is one example.
The parasite movement of the internal axes is due to the algorithm and the pairing procedure, it is WIP.

What bugs me, is that because you are not interested in those features...you want RS to drop them for everyone, that's kind a bit selfish, don't you think? Especially since, what is now the collector's edition, was the original F16SG (There was no basic edition, then), and thus, at least the bluetooth was one motivation for people. If you are not interested in either internal axes and bluetooth, then the only thing that is left is the upgradable module. Maybe RS can include that as an option in the standard version.

I have my F16SG on a warthog extension, so the wires can twist. I simply twist my stick (I don't lock the nut, so the stick can rotate in yaw).
Forgotten Spectrum
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:51 am
Product: R3
S/N: 111

Re: Purpose of axis sensors in premium F16 grip?

Post by Forgotten Spectrum »

ogami musashi wrote:What bugs me, is that because you are not interested in those features...you want RS to drop them for everyone, that's kind a bit selfish, don't you think?
I take it you didn't read through my whole post?

From my prior post:

I don't want them to discontinue the collector's edition or anything of that nature - as I'm sure at least a few sim flyers can put the extra features to good use.
ogami musashi wrote:The purpose of the bluetooth is to bypass the base onto which you attach the stick. For example, you can buy the winwing F-18 hotas with their throttle and stick base. If you are not satisfied with their electronics, you can attach an F-16SG to the base, power it.
Then why not just send all the data through the cord as well as the power? I'm still confused about the purpose of the bluetooth. Why not just connect through a standard mircro usb cord that includes both data and power? If you have to have it plugged in all anyway, what's the purpose of even including a wireless transmission method? Perhaps I'm missing something here? Thanks again for taking the time to reply, and thanks for clarifying how you're using the z-axis, I can certainly see how that would be helpful in your case.
Last edited by Forgotten Spectrum on Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ogami musashi
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:55 am
Product: R3
S/N: 65

Re: Purpose of axis sensors in premium F16 grip?

Post by ogami musashi »

Forgotten Spectrum wrote:
I take it you didn't read through my whole post?

From my prior post:

I don't want them to discontinue the collector's edition or anything of that nature - as I'm sure at least a few sim flyers can put the extra features to good use.
That one sentence, is contradicted by the rest of your posts. You keep on insisting that no-one but a few use those features, that everyone is going to use a base, that you don't see the use of such features and so on...
If you want additional versions or options to be offered, simply state that you are interested, and possibly others will say they are interested too, but,don't go on to say that the existing versions are a non-sense, or have no use.

ogami musashi wrote: Then why not just send all the data through the cord as well as the power? I'm still confused about the purpose of the bluetooth. Why not just connect through a standard mircro usb cord that includes both data and power? Perhaps I'm missing something here. Thanks again for taking the time to reply, and thanks for clarifying how you're using the z-axis, I can certainly see how that would be helpful in your case.
Because you can plug the chord into any socket so not necessarily near your pc.
Forgotten Spectrum
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:51 am
Product: R3
S/N: 111

Re: Purpose of axis sensors in premium F16 grip?

Post by Forgotten Spectrum »

ogami musashi wrote: That one sentence, is contradicted by the rest of your posts. You keep on insisting that no-one but a few use those features, that everyone is going to use a base, that you don't see the use of such features and so on...
If you want additional versions or options to be offered, simply state that you are interested, and possibly others will say they are interested too, but,don't go on to say that the existing versions are a non-sense, or have no use.
I can assure you, I would not have said it if I didn't mean it. If you're not willing to take my words at face value, I'm not sure what else I can say. As soon as someone outright says they don't believe you, it just sort of drives the whole conversation into a ditch...

I'm a bit of a technophile and I'm 100% behind packing as many features and doodads into a piece of technology. I say go crazy: make it motion sensing, touch sensing, add haptic feedback, slap some solar panels on it, integrate a nuclear core, add a dispenser for dilithium crystals, release an optional strap on harness so it can used as a dildo. I'm a big fan of VR and for years I've been shaking my head at people who say it's just a gimmick and that it should be scrapped, so I know how frustrating it can be to interact with people who want to take away something you truly enjoy and are excited about. You're clearing getting some use out of these features via the z-axis sensing. Why would I want to take that away from you or anyone else? All I'm saying is that it would be great if realsimulator released a less expensive stick with the premium modeling minus the features that I (suspect) most users are probably not utilizing. However, I understand this probably isn't terribly likely as it would further fragment their product lineup and might not justify the additional development cost.

ogami musashi wrote:Because you can plug the chord into any socket so not necessarily near your pc.
Once again, I'm just struggling to see the utility of this. How many gamers don't have their PCs sitting right next to where they're playing?

Thank you again for your feedback. Your comment regarding my supposed desire to see the collector's edition's features discontinued was frustrating to read, but I nonetheless really do appreciate your feedback. I'm still not sold on the bluetooth/axis sensing features for myself, but I can now see how they would be useful to a certain segment of the flight/space sim community.
ogami musashi
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:55 am
Product: R3
S/N: 65

Re: Purpose of axis sensors in premium F16 grip?

Post by ogami musashi »

It is not that I don't believe you, it is the way you worded your posts. When you want a stripped down version of something, you don't say that (virtually) no one will use the full version anyway, you say that you are interested in that stripped down version.

As for the bluetooth, for example, on my set up, I have the F16SG plugged onto the warthog base, which only serves the purpose of powering it. That way, the stick is not recognized as a warthog, but as a separate F16SG(two actually, one for the axes and the first 32DX buttons, another with the remaining 32DX buttons), in addition to the warthog. If I had a cable for both power and data, I would not be able to plug it in the warthog base, or, I would have to use the warthog compatibility mode and thus lose the F16SG.
Forgotten Spectrum
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:51 am
Product: R3
S/N: 111

Re: Purpose of axis sensors in premium F16 grip?

Post by Forgotten Spectrum »

ogami musashi wrote:It is not that I don't believe you, it is the way you worded your posts. When you want a stripped down version of something, you don't say that (virtually) no one will use the full version anyway, you say that you are interested in that stripped down version.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this particular matter. I can't think of a single reason that discontinuing the unique features of the collector's edition would benefit me in any way. All that would do would restrict consumer choice, which is exactly the opposite of what I'm arguing for. When I talk about the axis sensing feature and express the belief that only a small percentage of users are utilizing this feature I say it because: 1. I believe it's very likely true. 2. I believe there's a significant segment of gamers that would be interested in purchasing a reduced price premium stick that didn't include this particular feature. If the standard edition stick simply incorporated the premium locking ring, nicer stick material, and leds, I'd be totally happy.
ogami musashi wrote:As for the bluetooth, for example, on my set up, I have the F16SG plugged onto the warthog base, which only serves the purpose of powering it. That way, the stick is not recognized as a warthog, but as a separate F16SG(two actually, one for the axes and the first 32DX buttons, another with the remaining 32DX buttons), in addition to the warthog. If I had a cable for both power and data, I would not be able to plug it in the warthog base, or, I would have to use the warthog compatibility mode and thus lose the F16SG.
Thank you. That 100% answers my question. In conjunction with the warthog base, the bluetooth feature is without a doubt a very useful feature. Thanks for clarify that for me. I should have done more research on how the bluetooth could be used before dismissing this feature. I apologize for this mistake.
ogami musashi
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:55 am
Product: R3
S/N: 65

Re: Purpose of axis sensors in premium F16 grip?

Post by ogami musashi »

Works also with a R3/R3L base :) You have both the base and the F16SG.
Post Reply